MOLLY WOOD: Erica Keswin is a enterprise strategist who has labored with the world’s most iconic manufacturers during the last 25 years. She’s an outspoken advocate for a human-first office, particularly as AI dominates the dialog. In reality, she’s printed three bestselling books on the subject. Her newest guide, The Retention Revolution, simply got here out in October. Retention as we all know it’s a bit outdated, based on Erica. The explanations individuals keep at an organization have actually modified. Connection to our work and one another is paramount. So is flexibility, private improvement, and even an open door to exit via when the time comes. In in the present day’s episode, I chat with Erica in regards to the human office, what that’s, find out how to domesticate one, and why it’s extra essential now than ever. Right here’s my dialog with Erica.
[Music]
MOLLY WOOD: Erica, thanks a lot for becoming a member of me.
ERICA KESWIN: It’s nice to be right here.
MOLLY WOOD: So Erica, you may have been so prescient on this matter of a human office. Your first guide, Deliver Your Human to Work, was printed in 2018, which was in fact properly earlier than the pandemic, the generative AI growth, quiet quitting—all of those office traits we’ve seen over the previous few years. At present, in 2023—virtually 2024—these books are extra related now than ever. So let’s begin with a definition. What’s a human office?
ERICA KESWIN: So it’s humorous that you simply go all the best way again to 2018, which I like. After I wrote Deliver Your Human to Work, individuals on the time thought I used to be speaking about my canine, Cruiser. And whereas I’d say my canine Cruiser’s a really human canine, I used to be truly speaking about one thing totally different, which is about making a office that’s not solely good for individuals however good for enterprise, and the way these two issues will not be mutually unique. And if I had been to boil it down to 1 phrase of what it means to create a human office, it’s a office that honors relationships.
MOLLY WOOD: How does that resonate much more now, would you say, on this period of structured versatile work, Gen Z, and generative AI?
ERICA KESWIN: Throughout the pandemic, many leaders had been extra human. A few of them it was of their nature, and a few of them it was form of by default. And after we checked out their survey knowledge round worker engagement and job satisfaction, it truly went up throughout a really demanding time. And so once I take into consideration what these leaders did then and what they should proceed doing, none of it’s rocket science. You understand, they test in with individuals, they ask them, how are you actually, actually doing, and so they make it possible for individuals know—particularly, that is what Gen Z desires. They need to really feel like their chief truly cares about them as a human. And so once I take into consideration the world of generative AI, one of many issues that I’m seeing is that generative AI, along with being nice expertise, truly is making, from the place I sit, the human expertise that rather more essential.
MOLLY WOOD: You’ve given the instance of constructing that private connection at work. However how do you suppose these leaders can begin to put this into observe in a very structured means?
ERICA KESWIN: If I had been pondering, what could be on my to-do checklist for 2024 as I take into consideration retention, , what staff need, one of many largest issues they need is to develop and develop on the job—up, down, and sideways. And the chapter in my guide the place I speak about this, it’s known as From Ladders to Lily Pads, as a result of lengthy gone are the times the place there’s 100 rungs within the ladder and other people keep for 50 years and get a plaque and a pension. And in order leaders, one of many issues that we want to consider doing is to be artistic about find out how to assist individuals develop when there aren’t as many rungs going up. We’d like to consider inner mobility. How can we transfer them throughout? How can we probably even transfer them down? Typically the very best new position for any person may even be exterior of your crew or exterior of your group. Even have conversations with staff and ask them, how do you need to develop on the job? And the explanation why it’s so essential is that if a tradition doesn’t have that sense of psychological security, the place individuals can deliver their human to work, they aren’t going to be open to answering that query.
MOLLY WOOD: I’m interested in this concept of rising down. That’s not one thing we hear about that usually. Are you able to inform us slightly bit extra about that and the way leaders can shepherd that sort of development?
ERICA KESWIN: Not everybody, given a sure second in time of their life, essentially must really feel like they’re going up the ladder. You understand, there is perhaps a time the place somebody’s taking good care of aged dad and mom, taking good care of children, wanting to only do one thing slightly bit totally different. So I profile individuals within the guide which might be over-the-moon excited to take a lateral job, even a step again. Or possibly they’d an outward-facing position and have determined that they’d relatively have an internal-facing position. What I’d say by way of leaders and empathy, whether or not it’s speaking a few job change attributable to generative AI, or any change—we’re going from two days again within the workplace to 4 days. Given the final couple of years, individuals are on edge. There’s been a lot change. So I’ve a recipe, what I name a recipe for a human chief on this second, and it cuts throughout something that we have to begin to talk. And my recipe—and it’s humorous that I actually have a recipe as a result of I don’t prepare dinner—however my recipe is one half vulnerability so that you can say, I additionally haven’t been down this street earlier than. Whilst a pacesetter, generative AI might impression my position. Even I because the boss don’t have this all found out. So slightly little bit of vulnerability. The second a part of the recipe is empathy to say to individuals, look, I do know this has been difficult for everyone. I do know this isn’t simple. A bit of little bit of empathy. And the third a part of the recipe is basically essential—I imply, they’re all essential, but it surely’s experimentation. That’s, hey all people, we’re making this alteration and all I can say is that this too could change. This transformation could change, that we’re experimenting and this is probably not eternally. As a result of I do really feel like whatever the matter, individuals are strolling round with their shoulders of their ears as a result of they’re so burdened. And so when you strategy it with these three items, particularly the final one, experimentation, I do discover that it takes the temperature down.
MOLLY WOOD: One of many stuff you additionally speak about in The Retention Revolution is that growing tech intelligence is paramount, however that you could overdo it. And in order organizations and leaders are fascinated with find out how to combine and practice their staff round generative AI, how do they discover that steadiness?
ERICA KESWIN: Yeah, so I speak lots about discovering the candy spot between tech and join. That candy spot is about leveraging it for all of its greatness after which placing that expertise as a replacement. One factor that I did lately, as when my guide got here out, was to exit to Seattle and take part in an occasion with Jared Spataro’s group, who does a whole lot of the work across the generative AI and Copilot.
MOLLY WOOD: Simply to make clear, Jared Spataro’s group is Microsoft.
ERICA KESWIN: Yeah, and twice a yr they’ve crew week, the place all 250 individuals from everywhere in the world, wherever you reside, come to Seattle to spend every week collectively. And it’s not anti-technology, anti-generative AI in any means, form, or kind, however it’s taking time to construct relationships and to actually join on a human degree. As a result of what we see is that when you allow that week and also you return and also you’re utilizing your whole applied sciences to proceed to attach with one another and to maneuver your work and tasks ahead, your capacity to try this is that a lot stronger, having constructed the relationships in individual.
MOLLY WOOD: Your complete thread of your three books, up till The Retention Revolution, actually is this concept of humanity, and it’s a problem to leaders. And I’m wondering the way you see generative AI particularly contributing to serving to these leaders grow to be higher, serving to workplaces grow to be extra human. I do know that feels counterintuitive, but it surely’s simply the theme that retains arising again and again, that the humanity can’t be separated from generative AI.
ERICA KESWIN: Once more, it’s all new and shifting at such a quick tempo, however just a few fast issues that come to thoughts. One is that, as expertise modifications and even takes over items of a selected job, oftentimes it’s the human items which might be nonetheless there which might be taking over an elevated significance. So these are the so-called softer expertise, or as I prefer to say, energy expertise. I prefer to additionally say that the mushy stuff’s the arduous stuff, and generally the actually essential stuff. So I feel it’s going to grow to be more and more essential that we spend money on serving to individuals develop these human expertise. The second factor I’d say is that, I used to be at a convention lately and somebody gave the instance of, a radiologist will not be going to lose her job due to generative AI. A radiologist who doesn’t know find out how to work together with generative AI will in all probability lose her job. And so once more, in case you are fascinated with the way you as a human work together with any expertise, and particularly generative AI, you want extra superior human capabilities to try this properly. And that may in the end be the distinction by way of management, after which coaching the following technology to do the identical factor. Fifty p.c of managers say they get no coaching. They get promoted into these supervisor jobs as a result of they had been good at their particular person contributor day job. And I feel in 2024, we actually must lean into supporting and celebrating these center managers.
MOLLY WOOD: One of many threads that connects all of your work is that this significance of feeling a way of goal and feeling linked to a better mission. And in case you are offloading to computer systems the issues that computer systems are good at, and you’re exercising your analytical and demanding pondering expertise and growing inside your office, it seems like that must be constructive.
ERICA KESWIN: So I used to be on an AI panel lately, and I advised the story about how in my guide I interviewed the CEO of Meetup. And he talks about how when a brand new individual begins, he sends a private letter or e mail, that it doesn’t matter what position you’re in, , welcome Molly to the agency, we’re so excited to have you ever. After which he’ll say, your job in fill within the clean X, Y, or Z is so linked to the aim and mission of Meetup and right here’s how. So he’s actually connecting the dots between what you’ll do in your job and the aim and the mission of the group. When John F. Kennedy went to NASA for the primary time and walked into the Houston Area Middle and mentioned to the janitor, what do you do? And the janitor mentioned, I’m placing a person on the moon. And so individuals of all ranges and all roles need to really feel linked to the aim and mission of what you do. So my hope is that as generative AI takes over, and all tech takes over sure features of a pacesetter’s job, that chief can have extra time to attach together with his or her staff as people.
MOLLY WOOD: Let’s speak about retention extra broadly. One of many issues that you simply say within the guide that I simply suppose is especially attention-grabbing is that leaders ought to preserve an open door for workers who select to maneuver on. Are you able to inform us extra about that?
ERICA KESWIN: The entire concept of The Retention Revolution is that the world has modified, and with the brand new generations, they’re not going to remain in a single firm for a very long time. Going ahead, the brand new technology, they take a look at their profession extra as a portfolio. I spent a few years as an govt recruiter. And again within the day, if I noticed a resume with any person shifting in all places, it was a giant outdated crimson flag. Nowadays, not as a lot. Folks depart in the event that they don’t really feel like they’re rising. Folks depart if they simply need to attempt one thing else. There’s not as a lot of a stigma. So if we all know that individuals are seemingly going to return and be with us for, as Reid Hoffman calls, , the founding father of LinkedIn, a tour of obligation, then we don’t must make it once they depart to have this sense of, okay, Molly, you advised me you had been leaving, you’re lifeless to me. Don’t let the door hit you within the behind. As a substitute, let’s be strategic about how we are saying goodbye and let’s say goodbye gracefully, and let’s give individuals alternatives to attach, whether or not it’s via a podcast, whether or not it’s via studying and improvement alternatives, whether or not it’s via a publication, whether or not it’s letting all of our alumni know that there is perhaps new jobs and possibly they need to come again. There have been a whole lot of boomerangs at many firms, and as everyone knows, when individuals depart they’re additionally a model ambassador and so they should still purchase your merchandise. So The Retention Revolution, when you’re intentional about the way you onboard and intentional about the way you offboard, the office simply turns into way more of this virtuous cycle, and the world is heading that means whether or not we prefer it or not. And one fast instance that I’ll give: there was a examine completed out of one of many broad authorized associations, and so they discovered that the brand-new, bright-eyed and bushy tailed legal professionals coming into the companies, solely 30 p.c of them actually have a want to grow to be a accomplice.
MOLLY WOOD: One of many issues that everybody is grappling with post-pandemic is remoteness, and never each firm has the sources to fly individuals in for in-person gatherings as a lot as they’d need to. Do you may have suggestions for participating individuals remotely, and possibly utilizing expertise to create that human engagement?
ERICA KESWIN: To start with, I’d say sure, not all people can afford to deliver individuals again as typically as others. That being mentioned, I’d urge you to attempt to put some sources towards bringing individuals collectively. And it doesn’t must be all people, one location. It might be in a sure metropolis, it might be regional, and the place there’s a will, there’s a means. This subsequent remark will spotlight my, um, superior Gen X age, however once I was youthful, I watched The Love Boat. And on the present, The Love Boat, if listeners don’t know what that’s, you could possibly look it up, there was a lady named Julie McCoy and Julie McCoy was a cruise director. And I’m not telling you all to go rent cruise administrators, however we can not depart connection to likelihood. And I’ve a podcast that’s known as Left to Our Personal Units as a result of, left to our personal gadgets—excusing the tacky pun—we’re not connecting. And so any person must personal connection. What I like to recommend doing is, create a roadmap—map out your group, work out the place individuals are, work out how, when, and the place you may deliver them collectively in individual. After which once they’re not, take into consideration how, when, and the place to deliver them collectively nearly, however in methods which might be strategic. So for instance, managers are on the entrance traces of this retention revolution. As a bunch, they’re overworked, they’re having psychological well being points, they’re form of sitting there within the center, which I imagine they’re actually within the heart and we have to help them.There are organizations the place there are communities of managers that come collectively nearly to help one another. And it prices nothing apart from possibly an hour of your time. However until any person organizes it, it gained’t occur. It’s not leaving that stuff to likelihood. And ensuring that folks personal it. However it might probably’t simply be form of along with somebody’s day job. It must be valued. And it must be celebrated and acknowledged.
MOLLY WOOD: Each org wants a neighborhood supervisor. I like that.
ERICA KESWIN: Sure. 100%. Perhaps that’s higher than a cruise director, however sure, one hundred percent.
MOLLY WOOD: Alright, one final query for you. What’s the single most essential means for enterprise leaders to retain nice expertise?
ERICA KESWIN: Care about them.
MOLLY WOOD: It’s so easy and but so highly effective. Erica Keswin, thanks a lot. I encourage each chief in every single place to select up The Retention Revolution and go all the best way again to 2018 for Deliver Your Human to Work. Thanks a lot for the time. I respect it.
ERICA KESWIN: Thanks a lot.
[Music]
MOLLY WOOD: Thanks once more to Erica Keswin, a office strategist and bestselling creator who has labored with among the world’s most iconic manufacturers. That’s it for this episode of WorkLab, the podcast from Microsoft. Please subscribe and test again for the ultimate episode of this season, the place I’ll be chatting with Nir Eyal, a bestselling creator, entrepreneur, and self-described behavioral designer, about find out how to construct wholesome habits and enhance productiveness with the assistance of generative AI. That episode comes out proper in time for the brand new yr. For those who’ve acquired a query or a remark, drop us an e mail at worklab@microsoft. com. And take a look at Microsoft’s Work Development Indexes and the WorkLab digital publication. There you’ll discover all of our episodes, together with considerate tales that discover how enterprise leaders are thriving in in the present day’s new world of labor. Yow will discover all of that at microsoft.com/worklab. As for this podcast, please fee us, evaluation, and observe us wherever you hear. It helps us out a ton. The WorkLab podcast is a spot for specialists to share their insights and opinions. As college students of the way forward for work, Microsoft values inputs from a various set of voices. That mentioned, the opinions and findings of our friends are their very own, and so they could not essentially mirror Microsoft’s personal analysis or positions. WorkLab is produced by Microsoft with Godfrey Dadich Companions and Cheap Quantity. I’m your host, Molly Wooden. Sharon Kallander and Matthew Duncan produced this podcast. Jessica Voelker is the WorkLab editor.
